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 NSUNS2 Clauses

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Katsu
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PostSubject: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:20 am

Us at Kooketsu have extensively been playing NSUNS2 for a few weeks now. We've discovered a lot of things that are considered 'cheap' and 'unfair', as well as things that help/hurt characters (as displayed by the tier list). I think we can come to a coherent ruleset to be used in tournaments--at least until a better ruleset comes along. I've come up with Clauses for the ruleset, like what the Pokemon competitive battlers follow by:


Broke Tier Clause - 'Broke Tier' characters are banned from tournament play. This Includes (as of 11/10/10): Itachi Uchiha
'X' in the back Clause - You cannot Ougi/Jutsu/Grab an opponent after you KnJ an attack, ONLY when you end up behind them. If you KnJ and don't end up behind them, it's ok.
Assist Clause - You cannot pick an Attack Type Assist when you have two assists chosen, they have to be either Balanced or Guard Type. However, if you have only one assist, it's ok for it to be attack type.
Ougi Clause - You cannot Ougi an opponent (Ultimate Jutsu) on Wakeup, or after you Chakra Dash. Wakeup meaning when the opponent gets up after being knocked down. Team Ougis are especially warranted by this clause.

As you see, the rules aren't as threatening and 'BAN BAN BAN'. It's a lot simpler to follow and a bit easier to understand. If us mods/tourney leaders/gfx/admins can get input on this, it'll be very much appreciated.

EDIT: I'd like for these rules to be the Standard of the Forum if possible, it'll help this community grow in the long run if we do this I believe.

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:49 am

wait no attack type supports with 2?? what is the reasonig behind this not angry just curious...

also add in for tourney play if the best of 3 matches it should be that loser can then switch characters however the winner cannot....we have this rule in smash and it makes it a lot more fair when playing so if you play a more experienced and knowledgeable person you dont get wiped 2nd round without putting up a fight. idk if it should include support.

other than that looks good u guys want me to get some software for Bracket making? i have quite an excellent one laying around on my laptop i could share..
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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:17 pm

Think of this, if you choose an attack type with another assist, you basically have the perfect offense defense, without even having the need to attack. ESPECIALLY when you pick 2 attack types, you can juggle the opponent around and the ONLY way they can escape is if they KnJ the launching hit that causes strikeback. Anyways, heres an example, your opponent has an attack type plus a balance type. Think of this... their balance type is shikamaru. Shikamaru's chakra shuriken will guarantee strikeback if it hits, PLUS you have YOUR chakra shuriken to pin them down. Basically if you spam this, your opponent is a sitting duck being forced to block until you either run out of chakra, or their guard breaks and they get hit by shikamaru's tag, plus the strikeback of your opponent's attack type, which can lead into a free ougi.

Almost the same thing with guard type plus attack type, but a little more complex. Basically all you need to do is stand there with your guard type defending you, while your attack type does all the work, and you sit back on the side lines launching your opponent. And sense really the only thing that goes through guard types is certain jutsu, certain ougis and chakra dashes, a ranged character is at a huge advantage with this set-up. Basically attack type is 100% the best support option, so we need to tone it down to 1 attack type only.

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:33 pm

^ Pretty much this.

Also, the tournament leaders can decide the length of the match rounds on their own discretion. I don't want to impede on them more than I have to.

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:10 pm

honestly, i think making a "ruleset" restricting things in this game is definitely going to mess it up, things may be cheap, but that's why your chakra is limited, you are required to keep it charged up (leaving you open) or you will not be able to accomplish these things on top of the fact that they don't really even do that much damage, combo's are way more profficient, a match where people are knj'ing each other combo's is a lot more cheap/harder than sum1 who wastes their chakra on an ougi then u kick their ass

telling sum1 they can't be their favorite character doesn't work, it will limit authority due to people thinking we are biased, which in turn leads to unpopularity, itachi may be hard to beat, but he's not impossible, things should only be banned if they are things that people in a situation where they do not have a chance, not things that limit people's gameplay cbecause of their own mistakes, thingh as turbo controllers, and cheats of any form >.>

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:02 pm

Chakra isn't limited by a long shot, it's very plentiful and easy to get back, the only time it isn't is when your fighting a Hyuga or Kisame after they've awakened.

Itachi is banned because he is broken. He may be a fan favorite, but that doesn't discriminate from the tier list, nor the rules. Itachi creates an unfair environment because of his Awakening which gives him super powerful chains and an overpowered jutsu. Nothing can really counterpick this enough to bring Itachi down to normal S tier, there are checks, but checks are only checks.

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:04 pm

*Sigh* you guys just don't get it do you. Maybe one day we should just DEMONSTRATE all the cheap things and to whereas why people complain about the NUNS series. Its the fact that if these things aren't banned, you get punished for fighting in a fighting game. Btw, seriously? Punishment for them running out of chakra? In NUNS? Seriously? I've run out of chakra MULTIPLE times after ougi and jutsu spam, and EASILY got it back, no matter how hard the opponent tried to keep me pinned down. Chakra dash to me? Whatever I block it. Jutsu me? What ever I block it. Shuriken spam me? I have assists. If I don't have assists, I have my own shuriken/items. You can move, charge chakra, and move again. The opponents CANNOT run out of chakra in NUNS. It is basically just a spam fest of shuriken and jutsu. All we're doing is limiting the things that make combos useless. But if you wanna die to completely unavoidable ougis in the back or w/e, and rage due to doing combos and getting punished for them, be my guest.

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:21 pm

it just seems like everything you are throwing out is only based on theory, itachi is not impossible to beat, and requires him to have very low hp to even go into awakening, also, there are single m ode tournaments. so even then he doesn't have assists to back him up, 44 wins and 10 losses are what im at, a good 20 itachi's, and ive only lost to the one thad a turbo controller, its not hard, you just get him above that line, then try and finish him in one combo, Theory / = / Game.

We would lose an incredible amount of popularity if we said "you can use whoever you want. as long as its not Itachi."

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:25 pm

If we could explain 'Look, this is why Itachi is banned' then we wouldn't have to worry about popularity as long as we have valid information to back up our claims. People with intelligence and some competitive knowledge is what the community needs, not some noob fanboy who gets mad because Itachi's Susanoo instant win is broken as f**k

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:36 pm

Don't need to be harsh Sandman, I know your being practical and true, but don't try to make enemies that you don't need

/.02

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:37 pm

Lawl Katsu, you were a bit harsh in your post too Sad
EDIT: Nice job deleting my post, newb Razz

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:40 pm

Sandman wrote:
Lawl Katsu, you were a bit harsh in your post too Sad
EDIT: Nice job deleting my post, newb Razz

Chea.


Anyhoo, Halla, test these rules out. You'll see where we are coming from with this

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:03 pm

well its just, i play no rules all the time with my friend xeltos, and i mean, all the time and on top of that i actually play itachi quite frequently, and not once, have we ever had a match where i won by a landslide, or we werent both close to being dead, including susano'o matches he isn't broken in the game, just on paper, 8tails and 6tails(9tails) are both incredibly harsh and hard to beat as well but you don't see us banning them cuz of their awakenings, you can't just ban itachi cuz his awakening is bad. you have to find a legitimate glitch in his normal playstyle that can cause him to be unfairly unbeatable.

but i will test these rules out.

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:19 pm

Its good that you will try, but really about Itachi... we cannot just simply tell you why he is banned, we have to SHOW you ourselves. When Kooketsu gets money for our shiny new capture card, we will make videos showing you guys the comparison to the rules being in effect, and the rules not being in effect. We will also show you exactly WHY Itachi is banned. (He doesn't win by landslides, its the fact that, if he gets in his awakening, he will SCREW OVER his opponent's health. Like I said though, there is more than just his awakening.) Well here is an example from Narutimate Accel 2, if you know this game: Hiruko Sasori. His poison mode brings up his defense to make him take half damage, He also gets an attack boost, and all his attacks do poison. This alone is enough to make him banned, due to the fact that Poison hurts, poison kills. We've seen matches where one person had hiruko, he just entered poison mode, while the other person had like 85% health (Hiruko needs to be around 30% health to enter his awakening) Hiruko EASILY took the opponent out afterwards. Not to mention he also has other gimmicks that would make all the other characters frown, but I do not need to explain those.

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:37 pm

the thing about games though is, you need to break a game down to ban things, not just play it a bit and think it over, to ban something you must find a legitimate flaw in the game,

an example is in Dissidia, another fighting game, there was a term called EXCounter, if you went into your EXmode (the awakening of Dissidia except w/o the low hp) your opponent was staggered, and if you attacks them while they staggered, that was considered an EXCounter, it was banned because you would basically camp for ex, excounter your opponent and win, and there was legitimately nothing they could do about it, so they ditched it,

you stated yourself that you can cancel your combo's after one of your hits at any time, the point of combo's in this game is not to spam O and complete the combo, you are supposed to cancel them into other attacks to confuse your opponent so they do not knj, they are supposed to be used as mindgames if they knj you're first hit, don't press O again, block it, another thing that is not blockable

ON ANOTHER NOTE, EXLinking, a term where you would use an attack, and if they hit you and you went into EXmode, you would continue the attack, if someone got hit by this, it was their own fault, so it was not banned,

what im trying to say is, if you lose to susano'o, its cuz you yourself couldn't figure out how to last 30 seconds against it w/o dying, not because you literally cannot beat it, unlike hirako, where you basically said he was near invincible,

Itachi's awakening is not a legitimate flaw, its just something that you guys have thought through hard on and went, "you know, this is really, really hard to avoid", that's not how banning works. and popularity is everything if you do not want 3 people tournaments.

on another note, you can KNJ Susano's hits, and ninja move out of the way if you knj the 2nd or 3rd hit, and hit him while he's casting his fireball and doing the 3rd hit, its not that hard.

you can KNJ ANYTHING in this game, ANYTHING, even throws, even ougi's used during combo's to confirm their hits, nothing in this game is broken except Turbo controllers,

there is no legitimate reason to ban itachi because of his awakening that you can knj and dodge, for 30 seconds. its only 30 seconds! plan ahead what you're going to do!

the only thing i agree that should be banned are:

KNJCancelling
Turbo Controller
3rd party Cheats

that's it.. all are legitimate flaws in the game that are unavoidable, things that you will lose to due to the fact that they ARE broken, they are literally broken flaws in the game.

you also SAID, and screwed yourself over, you've only been playing for a few weeks! that's not NEARLY even close to a fraction of playing long enough to break down and understand a game! that's the length of opinion and misunderstanding! if you want to do these things, you need to atleast have 2 months of experience, and not just playing experience, legitimate moderation experience, and by that, i mean you need to take every little thing of a came, and seriously consider, through results whether it is broken or not. it is a process of MASSIVE amounts of time, and proof, to ban things in a video game for online use.

and that's my opinion after going through countless banning processes for multiple games over a period of multiple years.

also, FINALLY

im going to request that this topic be moved to a public and more general position so that everyone can discuss it, not just a couple of mods. this needs to be a public discussion.

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:01 pm

Who in the world said we were playing it for a few weeks? I certainly did not, it was KATSU that said that. No, we've been playing since Storm 1 came out. Before storm it was the Narutimate accel games. But i'm done with this, obviously you will continue to cling onto this until I give you video proof whereas to everything is banned. This is not the only website we've been to, and everyone discusses and fully tests the things we've banned, everything we ban is unavoidable. But like I said, since words will not convince you, we will give video proof.

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:11 pm

Woah man, this is a man2man/woman2woman h/e joins polite and smart discussion, no need to get political on me.

"Us at Kooketsu have extensively been playing NSUNS2 for a few weeks now"

NSUNS2 / = / NUNS1 or NACC Razz

2 things, everything you said actually IS avoidable due to the fact you can cancel your combo's so that you can't get knj punished,

you can knj attack initial launches of assists (you said so yourself)

you can clear as day avoid Susano'o AND knj him, (i even told you how)

and most importantly,

If there have been plenty of people's opinions on this, there should be no reason to move this to a public area for normal members to discuss this as well.


Moved to public area please, this isn't a matter for you and me, it should be considered to the people who will be playing the ruleset, cuz we are not god, we are people just like them.

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:24 pm

This is why I said I was going to post a video. This is ALSO why I was finished with the discussion until further notice. Just wait for the video to be released. Actually Halabaloo, i'm gonna send you a FR over PSN. I can show you basically everything I am speaking of on NUNS2 if you are willing. My PSN is below my avatar.

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:31 pm

im actually about to play my friend xeltos, but i can spare 2-3 matches and okay, but are you going to move this thread?

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:39 pm

No, no need for that, it was moved. This needs to be discussed more publicly, he is right on this. But also need to get you to realize that we made these rules only for the best, Hallabaloo.

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:24 pm

just a heads up, we made a very large mistake, when you agree to be a moderator, you agree that power is for all, not you, basically

when we have a discussion like this from now on, we both need to consider both sides, i would have deeply appreciate it if instead of saying "we'll show you, get on" or "we will post a video showing it, its for a good reason"

THAT is taking the role of the government. and we do not like the government ;P (no offense intended)

what needs to be done is both sides need to be thought about it (i did it as well, pretty badly too, i was being defensive)

will edit the rest with my opinion in a bit

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:36 pm

Hallabaloo4 wrote:
just a heads up, we made a very large mistake, when you agree to be a moderator, you agree that power is for all, not you, basically

when we have a discussion like this from now on, we both need to consider both sides, i would have deeply appreciate it if instead of saying "we'll show you, get on" or "we will post a video showing it, its for a good reason"

THAT is taking the role of the government. and we do not like the government ;P (no offense intended)

what needs to be done is both sides need to be thought about it (i did it as well, pretty badly too, i was being defensive)

will edit the rest with my opinion in a bit

Ha, no need to go all out and say "you don't deserve to be a mod" over a small discussion. I'll agree that both sides need to be viewed from a standpoint, but when it is completely doubted like that you can't help but show them evidence, otherwise there will be no conclusion.

Just my 0.02

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:40 pm

Chea, I didn't want this to be publicly introduced until we all could come to a conclusion because we are the higher-ups on the forums, and most decisions come from us mods/tourney leader/gfx or Shippuden. But if we need the opinion from everyone, then so be it.

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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:54 pm

naw that's not what i meant,

i deeply apologize for my defensive attitude and i did the same thing,

all i was trying to say with that was

we need to work on our attitudes against each other if we are going to be a staff XD we need to be able to look at the other side and just go

" i see what you are seeing here, and this is what i have" etc, etc,

and at some point, come up with a spot in the middle,

first of all, im not very good at the game in general, and sandman is really good and kicked my ass XD so kudo's to that, you're a good player Wink keep it up



Here are my opinions on the rules:

Broken Tier Clause:
I still do not believe itachi is broken to the point of being ban-able, i see him being a good character, i see him being hard to beat, i do not think that the only reason i did so well was because i was sage naruto, any character that did the same thing i did would have done just as well, and i had plenty of opportunities to defend myself against itachi, and even counterattack susano'o,

you can knj 1 hit, block the 2nd, knj the 3rd, block the fireball jutsu, you still have your guard, you can jutsu them (to recover your guard), back dash, and kill time, then repeat when they get to you, and that's exactly what i did, until i forgot to avoid that ameterasu out of my own mistake, a good 5 more seconds and susano'o would have been gone and you're defense, guard and damage woulda been severely reduced. I think he should stay.

the "X" behind after KNJ Clause: i can see a good reason behind this, and honestly, i think it is a bit broken, but its not broken to the extent where its unbeatable, i mean, it makes sense, in naruto the anime, they fight with jutsu's and ougi's and shurikens, usually when they get into physical combat, the jutsu user winner will generally win because of knj's, and things, but anime / = / game, so that is a non-valid point, MAYBE what we could do, is instead of banning everything behind your opponent, just ban KNJ cancelling, and change the KNJ Cancelling definition to something like:

"When you KNJ out of a combo (front or back) and use the Triangle Button combined with any other button to physically harm your opponent"

-that eliminates KNJ cancelling as a hole, and instant jutsu's behind the enemy, but also keeps them worry about spamming the O button so they won't get thrown after a knj
so people arent just running in using combo's thinking carefree-esque "oh if they knj it they will just start a combo and i can knj out of that so it will all be fine"

Assist Clause: This, i did not see as being super broken, you CAN, (proven) and are able to knj out of those attacks that bounce people back and fourth, i have done it with "Unavoidable ougi's" and i have done it out of "Team ougi's after support bounces" and etc.etc. i DO agree in a sense though,

some possible solutions: Keep Tournaments Single Match specific, limiting teams, and if there are team tournaments to be heald, you must either pick:
A. Only 2 Attacks
B. Only 2 Defense
C. Only 2 Balanced

so you cannot mix and match them for a somewhat "unbalanced" Team

[b]Ougi Clause:
i 100% disagree on this, if you don't want to be ougi'd on wake-up, delay you're wake-up, you do not have to put yourself in this situation, and if you don't want to be chakra dashed into an ultra, then block the chakra dash. you have a 100% applicable option to avoid this, and it is not broken in the slightest, if you have a safe and viable way to avoid it.


i also believe, that as i said, the rules should be: (discuss this please, this is an opinion)

All Characters are Available.

Tournaments will be held as Single players only. (harder to get legitimate tier data off of results if teams are involved)
If team tournaments or matches are held where these rules apply, you may not mix and match you're assist types, you must have either
1 Assist only, of any type
2 Attack
2 Guard
2 Balanced

KNJ Cancelling (The newer stated definition [not official]) is banned.


- Also, when you say higher-ups, a moderator is not a higher-up of the people, and honestly, decisions that arent entrusted to us, are not "decided by us" everything that is FOR the people, is decided by the people with "Influence" from the mods, our goal and our reason for being here is to make sure that members do not stray off of the right path with cases such as

Mis-posting
Compulsive swearing
offensive pictures/text/etc

and to keep it an orderly place, not to make decisions for people, so just don't worry about that too much ^^

Naruto Shippuden: Ultimate Ninja Storm 2

PSN ID: - Hallabaloo4/Halabaloo4
MSN: Sparkynotnick@hotmail.com

Balthier: I'm only here to see how the story unfolds. Any self-respecting leading man would do the same.
to the Extreme!


Thanks to Amphoric for the Signature!
Wedge - ShinethatLight - Hallabaloo4 - Rei-n - Xffixbmlx
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PostSubject: Re: NSUNS2 Clauses   Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:17 am

I agree to what you say, however the two attack types I gotta admit, I STRONGLY disagree with, due to the fact that, you can't KnJ EVERY time. You just cannot do that. If you have to rely on KnJ to get out of something that gives very little hits to KnJ, PLUS does about 2x the amount of team ougi damage, thats just wrong. I can see a mix between each of the assists, but not 2 attack types, since this is the cheapest combo you can get in the game. I only slightly disagree with the ougi on wake-up thing due to the fact that its actually easier to pull off than you think, ESPECIALLY with Kirin Sasuke. And chakra dash into ougi... your guard is more open than you think ^.-

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